The Bottom-Up Revolution Is...Empowering a Network of Advocates

Montana Gau is the founder of Strong Denver, a Local Conversation in Colorado. A software engineer by trade, he built the group into a registered nonprofit with a board of directors and several hundred members. Now, city officials are reaching out to the group for collaboration on a variety of initiatives.

In this episode of the The Bottom-Up Revolution, Gau joins Tiffany to discuss Strong Denver’s origins and where the group is now. He talks about how his role shifted as the group grew, from advocating “on the ground” to creating a space where others can more effectively advocate, and the new challenges and opportunities he has because of it.

  • Tiffany Owens Reed 0:06

    Hi everybody. Welcome to another episode of the bottom up Revolution podcast. I'm your host. Tiffany Owens, Reid, I'm a writer for strong towns, and it's my pleasure to host this show where we talk to ordinary people who are working in a grassroots, organic manner to improve their city, making it safer, more resilient, more beautiful. As you all know, the local conversation groups are one of the primary ways that strong towns members can bring strong towns principles to bear on their town, on their city. They're also fascinating examples and snapshots of how meaningful change can happen in a truly grassroots and organic fashion. I don't think you'll find any group in the country that's organized in the same way or working on the same issues, or taking the same approach to how they advocate, and that's what makes them so fascinating. Every city is unique, and every conversation group is unique, but what I find so interesting is just the idea the entire process of someone coming across strong towns ideas, looking at their city and saying, You know what? We can change this, and then bringing other neighbors together to do the same, to figure out what would meaningful change look like, and how can we begin facilitating that conversation. Today's guest is doing just that. Montana. Gao is a software engineer originally from northern Minnesota who is leading a local conversation group in Denver, Colorado. The group he's formed has become a bit of an incubator for people who care about Denver resonate with strong towns ideas and have interesting solutions to some of the challenges their city is facing. Our ideas and how they can help the city move in a more resilient direction outside of work and strong town advocacy. Montana spends his free time with friends, enjoying his city and enjoying the great outdoors. So Montana, welcome to the bottom up Revolution podcast.

    Montana Gau 1:53

    Thank you. It's good to be here. So to start off, can

    Tiffany Owens Reed 1:57

    you tell us a little bit about where home is for you and how you came to live in Denver? Yeah,

    Montana Gau 2:03

    for sure. So as you mentioned, I'm originally from northern Minnesota, small town account called Grand Rapids. It's about 200 miles north of the Twin Cities. And how I came out to Denver is actually my siblings moved here, my brother and my sister both. I'm very, I'm very, very close with my family, and they both both moved out this way. I was living in San Francisco at the time, and that was a really big pull for me. I was kind of, like, looking to move out of San Francisco anyway, and having them both be in Denver is like, like, kind of a no brainer for me. I love the outdoors, and I've been to Denver before and really, really enjoyed it. So that's kind of what brought me

    Tiffany Owens Reed 2:42

    here. So you said Grand Rapids, Minnesota, that's not Grand Rapids. Michigan,

    Montana Gau 2:47

    it is not Grand Rapids. Michigan. Yeah, there's another grand rapids that is definitely a lot larger than the one up in Minnesota.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 2:54

    Which one existed first? Though? Who has original dibs on the name?

    Montana Gau 2:59

    Oh, I wish I knew that if I had a guess, it would probably be Grand Rapids, Michigan, just because it is so much larger Grand Rapids, Minnesota is certainly a lot smaller, so much so that I even rode my snowmobile school growing up there quite a bit, which was kind of fun and unique. Wow, you

    Tiffany Owens Reed 3:17

    learn something new every day. I had no idea there were two Grand Rapids. I've been to Grand Rapids Michigan. Love it, thanks to great thanks, a great place, and would love to go again. Haven't been in a long time. So I'm just curious, what was that like for you, going from small town to San Francisco to Denver? Do you feel like anywhere along that journey you started like, was you started to kind of think about like the built environment or cities or anything like that? I had a similar experience going to school in New York City and then leaving New York City for work, and then that's when the comparison between these different patterns of building, and it's just the different patterns of life, because the built environment really, like really kind of sunk in. Did anything like that happen for you? Yeah,

    Montana Gau 3:57

    it absolutely did. And probably the biggest culture shock for me, originally, is when I went off to college in Minneapolis, and just, you know, got to experience walkable environments, kind of like, you know, for the first time ever, Minneapolis is, like, a really, really bike friendly city. And I did not have a car when I moved to college, so, you know, I brought a bike with me, and that was kind of it. And that's what I used to, you know, go to classes and the grocery store either. That on my longboard, you know, is biking, longboarding, walking, snowmobile. I did not bring my snowmobile. I think it was frown upon that in the in the inner city there the Grand Rapids, that stuff was flying, but, uh, maybe not so much in Minneapolis, but, yeah, just just, you know, got to walk around to places, you know, go to the like, be able to, like, easily access the places I wanted to go. It was, you know, a much shorter commute than what I was used to. And, you know, started to really, really enjoy that, that kind of, you know, living in that environment. I'm like, wow, it's actually really, really nice to be able to just like, you know, walk. 10 minutes to, you know, go, go to the grocery store, the bar, or friend's place, or whatever, you know, yeah,

    Tiffany Owens Reed 5:06

    so then San Francisco. What was that like? Yeah,

    Montana Gau 5:09

    San Francisco was, was also really cool. I liked it there a lot. I noticed that they had Hills immediately when I moved there, and that biking was a little bit harder. So I actually grabbed an E bike when I moved there, and, you know, found that a little bit easier to get around, because, like, I didn't want to, like, drive everywhere. I did actually have a car when I lived in San Francisco, but that was more of a liability than an asset, but, but, but I loved it. There was, it was, you know, kind of the same thing, but even more dense than Minneapolis. You know, bike ability, walkability was like walkability was better in San Francisco, but I think bike ability was probably worse. Minneapolis is actually super, super fantastic for biking and such it

    Tiffany Owens Reed 5:48

    really is. Yeah, it's one of my favorite memories when I had, I had this phase in my life, before I was married, I just, I traveled a lot. Sometimes now I look back on it, and I'm like, wow, it was so cool. How did I manage to do all these trips, but one of my favorite trips was to Minneapolis, and it was during the spring. And one of my favorite memories were a the lilacs, they were beautiful, and B, just I bought I stayed with a girl through couch surfing, and she had a bike she let me borrow, so I got to just bike all over the city. And one of my favorite memories was biking around, and then I found one of those little lakes that are, like, right in the city. And just like, I guess I just like, leaned to my bike up on a tree or something, or locked it up or something, and just like, took a nap,

    Montana Gau 6:32

    like, right there. It's nice. Like,

    Tiffany Owens Reed 6:35

    this is amazing. And then, just like, you know that feeling when you wake up and you're like, wait a second, where am I? And you're like, Oh, this is beautiful. This is magical place. Very much. It was just, it was very enjoyable, very beautiful. And I just love the integration of like, especially green space and water right into the city. And the bike lanes are so well connected. And then you could just stop and literally smell the flowers. It

    Montana Gau 6:57

    was wonderful. Minneapolis is absolutely fantastic for that kind of stuff. I miss it a lot of the time. It's lovely. So,

    Tiffany Owens Reed 7:04

    so you come to Denver, I would, I would love it if you could kind of continue the story here of just like what you were noticing, kind of, it sounds like there were some really great things about Denver, but it doesn't strike me as a super bike or walkable place. So how did you kind of navigate that tension?

    Montana Gau 7:20

    Yeah, it is, you know, it's not that there's no walkability or bike ability. Here I live, you know, kind of downtown here, and I still walk and bike pretty much everywhere. But it definitely is a lot different than when I was, you know, living in San Francisco or Minneapolis, especially Minneapolis, because here I bike most everywhere on my E bike, and in Minneapolis, I also biked, you know, pretty much everywhere, but Denver is kind of lacking. Like, what I would say is, like, a real kind of a network, you know, of bike lanes and such. You know where Minneapolis, it's very easy to go from one place to another on a bike, and you're gonna feel, you know, relatively safe and protected on a lot of the bike lanes and the trails I have there where they'll have, like, you know, a lot more separated bike lanes and greenways and all this kind of stuff, where Denver, it has some of it, but it's, it's nowhere near as much, not even close. And sometimes, like, you'll be on a bike, and one time I was on a bike lane in Denver here, and shortly after I moved here, and that bike lane just kind of, like, gradually put me onto the on ramp of the interstate. I'm like, What's going on here. Like, it just dumped me out into, like, you know, the middle, like, busy streets here, whatever. And I'm like, this is not very much fun, you know.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 8:29

    So where did strong towns come in to the to your consciousness? Yeah. So how did that? How did you find out about strong towns, and how did it help you, um, kind of interpret your experience, or interpret the built environment or the things you were noticing, yeah,

    Montana Gau 8:45

    yeah. So I watch a lot of YouTube. And, you know, watch a lot of channels, like, not just bikes, you know, like city, beautiful and strong towns, you know, eventually they came out with their own, you know, like official YouTube channel too. And, you know, I started watching those videos as soon as they came out. At the end of one of those videos, of those videos was a call to action, you know, to go join your local group, right? And, you know, I was, you know, sitting there just, you know, after the end of the video, just frustrated that, you know, the environment here in Denver, whatever, right? I'm on like, you know, I want to go join my local group, you know, like, there was a call to action. I'm like, sweet, I can do that. I'll go join my local group. Let's see what we can do. And I got on the map, and I'm like, Oh, we don't have a local group here that didn't exist, you know, quite yet, right? Was trying to join one. But I'm like, okay, so if it doesn't exist here, I can't be the only one who thinks this. What does it take to actually start one? You know, like, Denver's a big city. I noticed that Fort Collins had a local group in there, you know, a lot smaller than us. I'm like, you know, Denver's a big city. How do we not have a local group yet? What does it take to actually kind of get this, you know, off the ground and going, you know, and kind of, kind of looked into that and went through that process and, you know, reached out to to strong towns. I think there's like, a little web form or whatever, that you Phillips try to welcome. Local Group. I can't quite remember. It's been a about two years or so now, and just started having meetups. You know, first meetup was really small, you know, posted some stuff on like Reddit and Facebook, like, hey, you know, check this out. We're gonna, we're gonna have a meetup or whatever. And it just kind of, you know, grew, grew from there. You know,

    Tiffany Owens Reed 10:18

    when you came across strong towns, what? What really resonated with you? Yeah, we're learning, yeah.

    Montana Gau 10:25

    So, I mean, I mean, lots of things, right? You know, there's issues that strong towns is, you know, making, like, a big thing where it's like, you know, there's, there's, there's ask, strong towns is really broad, but there's like, you know, aspects of housing, aspects of transportation, aspects of, you know, like, you know, resilient and local finances and such like that. And, you know, I thought it was very compelling where it's like, when you look at it, you know, when you look at like, the way that like, like cities and such are developed from the perspective of finances, there's actually a really compelling argument to be made there too, where, like, a lot of cities throughout the throughout the country, are financially insolvent, right? Where it's like, this pattern of development really, really, is not sustainable. It really isn't, you know, like it's kind of like the the growth Ponzi scheme, right? Where it's like, you're financing this development, or the existing development with this new development, but you're just building sprawl. It just takes so much more, you know, like lines of power lines and sewer lines and water resources.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 11:23

    Exactly. Yeah. You know, it's kind of the strode effect when you discover what a strode is, and then you drive around, you see them everywhere. Particular to Denver, what was it that you were kind of putting like when you were thinking about, Oh, okay, here's strong towns. Here are all these different things they talk about. But then here's my particular city. What was it? What were you noticing about Denver that you that started to light up for you? Of, like, ah, like, this is something that we could make better, or this is a vulnerability, or this is, this is a weakness that, you know, we can talk we can really bring some improvement to.

    Montana Gau 11:56

    Yeah, it's, it's a number of things, you know, really, like, like, in Denver, you know, we have a housing crisis, just kind of like, you know, everywhere else. And also, you know, some of it's that, that bike ability that I just, you know, don't feel like I can actually go from one place to another, like, like, I have like, you know, a map in my head where I bike everywhere, and I have like, a map in my head of, like, the streets that I feel safe on to do bike. But it's like it is so much more lacking. You know, it's like, we really don't have, like, the network, like, I spend a lot of my time going from from like, north to south in Denver, where it's, like, a lot of the stuff that I want to do in the city is more north to south, and there are just, there's like, one bike lane that, like, feels safe to go from north to south in Denver, there's the Cherry Creek Trail, which is more of a recreational trail. It's not really for transportation or commuting. And then there's South Broadway, which has, like, a nicer bike lane, but that's also on a strode which isn't, you know, ideal, and also doesn't, it doesn't come this far up to the city. So it's like, I have to go through a lot of the city before I can even get to where that bike lane starts. And that's how I get around, you know, right? Like that. That is my primary means of transportation. I I have a car, but I don't really enjoy to use it. It's not as much fun. Yeah, I don't know. There's lots of things to be to be improved here.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 13:15

    Okay, so you started this group. Tell us a little bit more about how it Yeah, what has it been like? How long have y'all been in operation? And what has it been like, kind of watching it grow?

    Montana Gau 13:25

    Yeah. So we're right around the two year mark here of when we first started this group. I'm pretty sure it was March of 2023, when we started. And it is. It has grown so much like so, much more than I could have expected, to be honest. I mean, our first original meeting was, was seven of us, including myself, just sitting around a round table at a bar. And now we're doing so, so many more things and involved in so many different efforts. We have, you know, several 100 members who have, you know, are involved in one way or another. We've, you know, like, officially filed a nonprofit, and, like, have a board of directors, and, you know, leaders for different efforts. And we, you know, host monthly conversations, and now we post workshops every single Monday as well, and we do tons of things. Now, it's really, really cool, and we're getting noticed by the city. Local, local officials are reaching out to us, and they want to collaborate, where we're working with various city councils and such on, on things and and, you know, just like all kinds of stuff, right? It's, it's really, really cool.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 14:31

    Yeah, we'll talk more about those initiatives in a minute. But I'm just curious, as you started seeing people come out and join the group and join the conversations, what do you think was resonating with them about the like, about strong towns, about the opportunity, or the needs of the city, and just this whole framework of like, addressing those needs.

    Montana Gau 14:52

    I think most folks were probably coming from like, a perspective similar to myself, you know, like, I ask people all the time, like, How'd you figure out about strong towns? Such like that. And a lot of them, for a lot of them, it was like, you know, through YouTube, kind of like myself, right? And just like, you know, looking at at strong town stuff, and it's like, this is what you know, a more ideal pattern of development would look like, and this is what a more vibrant, you know, neighborhood would feel like. And then, you know, comparing that to Denver, it's just like, oh, you know, like, you know, Denver is great, but we're not, you know, there, right? And I think, you know, that was resonating with people a lot where they just wanted to improve their communities. And so, yeah,

    Tiffany Owens Reed 15:29

    that's really great that you were able to create an opportunity to tap into that fix it mindset, rather than just like, oh, let's complain, or let's all just move but managing to attract a bunch of people who are ready to, like, do something about it, I think, is really interesting. So let's talk a little bit more about the initiatives y'all are working on. Can you share about some of those?

    Montana Gau 15:51

    Yeah, for sure. So we're working on, like, a few things, usually at any any one moment, you know, kind of paying attention to whatever is going to be coming down the pipeline like, you know, locally here, right for, like, whatever city council might be voting on soon. One such example is, is the expansion of Pena Boulevard, a big road that goes out to the airport. Here, they are not really investigating, you know, any alternatives to, you know, just expanding the highway. So, you know, like, we want to have a have a voice in that room when those talks come up. We've also played a pretty big role in trying to repeal parking mandates here in Denver, you know, and have shown up at like, you know, city council meetings and, you know, voiced our support for these kinds of things. There's a city council here, a person here, Chris Hines, who is very, very empathetic to our, you know, views here. And Denver City Council is actually gonna be voting on that, you know, relatively soon. Right now, one of the big things that we're looking at is is, what would it actually take to, you know, up zone, the whole city, to allow for Plexus, by right, everywhere, you know, like, what? Like, we're kind of looking at two things there. Number one, like, what is the actual process that, you know, somebody needs to go through to make that change and see if we can get some kind of, like, you know, step by step, repeatable process for other zoning changes we would want to make in the future or advocate for. And then, you know, the other part of that is that we actually do want to do that, you know, we would love to see the city, you know, up zoned, for example, you know, to try to allow more housing and then, and then from there, you know, we could go into a zoning change of, you know, allowing mixed use neighborhoods where, you know, making it legal to build little corner stores and bodegas and your neighborhood, so any number of things. Usually we're working on those. And there's more than that, too. We work on a lot of things here. You

    Tiffany Owens Reed 17:39

    all, I think you in particular, I'm sure, I'm sure. I don't know if you, you did this with other people from the group, but you all did a crash analysis studio. Can you tell us a little bit about that? What, yeah, accomplish, and what were some takeaways from that experience?

    Montana Gau 17:56

    Yeah, absolutely. So we've actually done a two crash analysis Studios here in Denver, and have a third kind of in the mix, but we'll see where that goes. But we've, we've done a few crash analysis crash analysis studios here, and really, kind of, what we're looking to gain is to just put a spotlight on the infrastructure here in Denver, like, like, especially, to find like, particular crashes where it wasn't just, you know, super clearly the fault of like, you know, a driver, like, like, I feel like people are so quick to just blame drivers for, you know, when crashes happen with, you know, turning a blind eye to the the failings of infrastructure. And we want to do try to identify what the infrastructure, you know, did to kind of fail in these situations, right? What is it about, you know, like this, this particular crash, where the infrastructure failed and and, you know, like, led to this intersection being more dangerous, and, you know, how could it be improved? And trying to just shed as much light on that as possible, you know, and advocating, you know, for the city to then, you know, try to change the intersection, coming up with things like, what could we do better? What could we do better in the in the short term? What could we do better in the midterm and long term? Yeah, so I worked with a lot of other folks on that effort, actually, some, some really notable ones were Adam spiker and and Chris Harlan, who they actually were really driving a lot of those, those efforts forward. And, you know, spending more time with with feet on the ground and such like that. So I really want to give credit where credit is due, you know, going there and doing speed studies, you know, you know, taking lots of pictures of the intersections and such like that. A lot of my role here was, you know, a little bit more facilitation and such. But we were looking at that intersection, we're like, yeah, like this, this intersection has so many things wrong with it, you know, honestly, right? Like, the posted speed limit is too high. The design speed is way too high. There's tons of like, you know, traffic coming in. Like, this used to be a highway going out to the airport, like the old Stapleton airport, so it was. Like, it was designed to be a highway, essentially, and then just, you know, eventually turned into, you know, more as you know, things were growing and neighborhoods were popping up over there, you know, over the last, you know, 30 years, right? It's like, okay, now we have this horrible mix of of, you know, this horrible design with, you know, a lot more foot traffic and cycle traffic going through that. And I was just, you know, refreshing myself with the stats here. And there are 83 accidents at that intersection, three year period, which is just, you know, that sounds pretty bad to me, you know, right? And like these accidents resulting in fatalities. You know, the one that we did the crash analysis here was, was, you know, a car hit a pedestrian, and, you know, unfortunately resulted in, you know, fatalities, right? And we were looking at that one, and when that happened, it's like, the the driver was going basically at the speed limit, you know, right? Like, weren't like, it's not like they were, you know, a drunk driver go up just barreling through an intersection, or something like that. It's like, no, it's like, this intersection is really dangerous, and it's designed in a way that is really dangerous. You have cars zooming by with five lanes of traffic going in one direction, super wide lanes. It's, it's, it's still a highway. They put a stoplight there and, you know, and now there's, you know, people walking through, but it's still a highway in a busy neighborhood now. So

    Tiffany Owens Reed 21:20

    what were some of the takeaways from that experience?

    Montana Gau 21:24

    Yeah. So, I mean, some of the biggest takeaways were, yeah, just like, like, seeing, looking at it, being like, Yeah, is this, this really is horribly, horribly designed, you know, like, like, what would it look like for this to actually, you know, be better. What are some things that we could do and, you know, kind of short and, you know, near term, and, you know, mid and long term, right? And looking at it being like, you know, if we could just even make the walk timers, you know, go before, before the green lights, right, so that pedestrians can get a jump start on the cars when they're when they're making turns and such like that. And making the walk signs be be longer, you know, they can wait for traffic to, you know, fully stop, and they have more time to cross the street, being able to put in, you know, like, physical barriers for bike lanes over there. And then, you know, like, eventually, you know, like, long term, but like, honestly, it kind of needs, like, a whole redesign. Like, there's five lanes of traffic going through, yeah, it's just way too much.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 22:19

    Were you all able to get this in front of, like, city leaders or people and kind of on the transportation side of things? Yeah,

    Montana Gau 22:27

    a little bit. Dodie around noticed some of the crash analysis stuff we were doing here, and reached out and actually wanted to, you know, partner with us for, like, a rapid response team and such that stuff stretching my memory a little bit, and some of those efforts have actually settled down and favor some other things after some of these crash policies more recently. Well, hopefully you all are able

    Tiffany Owens Reed 22:51

    to keep the momentum going on on that conversation. I know it sounds like you'll have a lot on your plate, but definitely sounds like an important effort. I want to ask you, you mentioned earlier about how you have found yourself functioning more as like a facilitator in the group. What have you learned about organizing groups or just leadership, or, I don't know, do you see yourself as like a, like someone who leads things, and just what has been the personal development side of all this free What's that been like? Yeah,

    Montana Gau 23:23

    so I've learned a lot, you know, to be honest, and it's, it's a lot different than I would have thought going into in the first place. You know, not necessarily in a good or bad way, just just, you know, different, right? Well, like a lot of, a lot of what I do, and will probably the most valuable stuff that, at least I do for the group is, is that facilitation. There are, there are many people in the group who are pushing these efforts along, further than myself, right? They're doing more the groundwork. They're working more with, you know, city councilors and doing more to, you know, try to influence legislation and write articles and all this. I really am more of a facility, a facilitator for the group, right? Which is probably the most valuable thing that I can add, you know, personally, right now anyway, right? Is like just providing that, that structure to make other people, you know, just just way more productive, right? And that has been an interesting thing to figure out, right? Is there are challenges there that that I, you know, wouldn't have foreseen or had known about or ever even really thought of before. Now, where it's like, you know, how do I give people the tools to feel empowered? You know, is something that I'm thinking about all the time, right? Like, we have new faces coming in on a group all the time. We have 100, we've had hundreds of people pass through, pass through our group, right? And, you know, how can I make it so that, like somebody new comes in and that they feel, you know, welcome, they're having a good time, and they feel empowered to go make change, right? That's something that I'm trying to think about, like, literally all the time. I'm

    Tiffany Owens Reed 24:56

    glad you are explaining it the way you are, because I feel like. There can be this perception that leading a group or being involved in your city means being everywhere, being the voice, being the face, being the one agent of change yourself. And it sounds like one thing you've learned is like a different paradigm for causing effective change, which is to create a space for other people, not like you're like, avoiding the work, but it's like things just, and this is what I was saying in the opening of like, there's just an organic nature to how groups form. And some people are really on the front lines, really physical, really the voice in the face. And some people like yourself just kind of learn that, like, you know, the best role for me is, like, kind of just make sure everyone, like you said, feels welcome, feels empowered, and has that space to, like, speak up and like, run with their idea, because some people really need that. They have a ton of ideas. They don't really have the support or the space to really do anything with them. And it sounds like you're really providing that for a lot of people in your city. Yeah,

    Montana Gau 25:57

    that's that's kind of the goal anyway. Yeah,

    Tiffany Owens Reed 26:02

    do you have any fun stories or just like snapshots of how you've seen this group existing, sort of unlocking or unleashing people to kind of do their thing? Yeah, maybe they wouldn't have if the group didn't exist. Yeah, definitely,

    Montana Gau 26:23

    you know, actually, you know, like people come to the group and, and, you know, like some people tell me that they have never been in a room before where they felt like there was so many like minded people with, you know, like these, especially with these particular issues, right, where it was just like, some folks are like, you know, I've been watching this stuff on like YouTube or reading about it, you know, for so long, but I've never actually conversed with people you know about it before, and seen people working to actually make this change, right? That's been really, really cool to see actually, where it's like, folks come in and some, some people come in and they're immediately so passionate they want to, like, immediately get into the weeds with everything, and just like, you know, push things forward and do tons and tons of work. And there are definitely people who are doing that, which is, which is really, really cool. I don't know. There's kind of been lots of examples honestly, you know. And seeing folks like, we host, we host meetups at this point, we host meetups every single week now. But there are, there are people who are meeting with their they come into the group, and then they feel empowered and encouraged to go meet with their city councilor. Or, you know, a few of them will get together for coffee and talk about some issue that that they're working on, you know. And just like giving people that space to not only work on things, but also, you know, meet other people to work on things and kind of, you know, even self organize in addition to the organization we're providing right,

    Tiffany Owens Reed 27:46

    which is almost like a very networky approach to change right, where it's like, provide enough of the infrastructure and organization and order, but not so much that it's like, Super predictive. It's more like networking, I don't know.

    Montana Gau 28:03

    No no, that's 100% right.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 28:05

    I feel like that's like a good success indicator for for something like this, where it's like, well, do people feel like they can just get together and kind of go do something, you know, instead of worrying about, like, where are we following the rules? Where are we within the right hierarchy? Well, we have to get permission and approval from that and that person, you know, rather than it. But it sounds like you've created an environment where change is a result of unpredictable networks coming together and like, exchanging information and then combining that with action.

    Montana Gau 28:38

    We give people like, like, we have a discord channel that we run here in Denver as well. And, you know, like, that's active pretty much every day. So, you know, like, seeing people talk on the discord, like, pretty much every single day, you know, with, like, you know, new, new policies that are coming in, you know, things that we can do, events, you know, all different kinds of things is also, you know, really, really cool. So it is really just giving people that space, right?

    Tiffany Owens Reed 29:03

    How do you navigate? Do you ever, like, find yourself, like, waking up the middle of night, like hyperventilating, oh gosh, what's gonna happen next? Or, like, what if we don't know what exactly the right answer to something someone says? Or what if we don't know the right alternative to a bad idea? Or what if, like, the group gets too big and, you know, or someone says something really stupid and inflammatory, and then we have to, like, do, like, image management.

    Montana Gau 29:28

    Yes, definitely. I mean, one thing that I feel personally a lot of the time is, is like, imposter syndrome in the group, especially because, like, I'm a software engineer, I am not an urban planner, right? And like, I've somehow, you know, come to facilitate the group, right? But there are people in the group who are urban planners.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 29:46

    Wait, you're not an urban planner Montana? Why are you even on this show?

    Montana Gau 29:52

    This is where the imposter syndrome comes in. It's like, oh my gosh. Like, what am I doing here? It's like, there are experts in this group. On this subject matter, exactly this subject matter. We have developers in the group, and we have, you know, civil engineers and urban planners and people who work for, you know, the Department of Transportation. And it's like, what am I doing here? You know? So, like, I think about that all the time where it's like, yeah, if I end up, you know, like, in this conversation we're having right now, it's like, yeah, I don't know the answer to everything. I don't you know. And there's lots of people who know so many more things than than I do you know. So that's, that's what I would hyperventilate over, over probably most.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 30:35

    Maybe I should just make this a standing question every episode from now. What do you hyperventilate over seven in the morning.

    Montana Gau 30:44

    Any little, littler things, you know? Yeah.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 30:47

    I mean, I think that's why they're called conversation groups and not answer groups. Yeah. Well, let's come together and, like, finally figure this out. And like, have dialog and like, exchange information and swap ideas and just learn to be comfortable with a more emergent and organic approach to problem solving and more creative approach, which I think in some ways you could say the conversation groups is sort of functioning as a bit of like a case study, and maybe even how cities should run. Yeah, honestly, when it comes to problem solving. You know, I think local government has gotten so bogged down with bureaucracy and rules and municipal Wait, no, I'm using the wrong word. Yes, bureaucracy rules and compliance. And there's a time and place for rules in order and organization, but I think perhaps it's overgrown its use. And so I feel like the conversation groups are kind of presenting an entirely different model for like, what does it look like to actually think about the city, to notice problems, to test solutions, and to Yeah, to actually improve things.

    Montana Gau 31:58

    I know. I agree 100% right. It's like, you know, you know, just, I mean, just ask an average person, like, what do they feel like their ability to impact, you know, their neighborhood is right? Like, most people don't even know what the process would look like, you know, to actually try to, like, make a change. You know, I was

    Tiffany Owens Reed 32:15

    thinking about this this morning, driving home, I dropped my husband off at work, and was driving back to our neighborhood and between, like, within like, three blocks, I had come up with a list of like, four things that needed to happen, like, just from things like people parking too close to stop signs so that you couldn't really see. I was like, we should just paint all the, like, the eight feet back from every intersection where there's stop sign or yield sign painted red so no one can park there. That would be easy.

    Montana Gau 32:42

    Or lives to, like, literally, yeah. Or

    Tiffany Owens Reed 32:46

    it's like, Lane, like, really wide streets with no Lane painting, lanes painted on them. I was like, There's number two, or, um, hang a couple other ideas. Can, you know, there's, like, a lot of trash issues, like, you know, obviously getting, you know, trash anyway, but yeah, it's like, I don't think there's a lack of observation or a lack of people knowing what the problems are. I think it's an issue of like, well, what does it look like to actually affect change? And things get I think things just get so complicated, you know. And it's like, is it really that difficult, you know? Is it really that difficult to, like, notice problems and fix them. And so I feel like that's why people resonate with the conversation groups, because they do offer, like a something resembling a solution to that problem of the frustration of, like, seeing so many problems and not Where do you go? Yeah, and also not wanting to do it in isolation, because I think that's a really big option. A lot of people, they want to do it with, they want to they want to be part of the solution, but they don't want

    Montana Gau 33:46

    to do it alone. That, I mean, that's a big thing that I've learned at this group, is that you don't have to do it alone. There are tons and tons of passionate people who also want to help out, and you do not have to do these things alone, which is really fantastic.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 33:58

    What as you look to the future, do you are there some things you get you're particularly excited about that your group is working on right now?

    Montana Gau 34:07

    The biggest thing that I'm, like, really excited about right now, I mean, I mean, there's a few things. One is some of the really short term stuff of organizing some city council meetups for, you know, certain, certain bills that are coming through, or, you know, Texas moves that are coming through. I'm pretty excited for that, because it's coming up, you know, relatively soon. And then some other, you know, like, bigger, longer term things is, is, I feel like we've really kind of rallied around this idea of trying to, you know, up zone, the city, and to actually go through this process. Because, like, what we what, exactly what we were just saying, it's like, how do you actually make the change? And we're going through that process, we're making the change, and we're going to be developing steps and content to kind of boil it down into like, this is what you do. You know, if you want to make this change, this is how you do it, making it like, really, really easy to you know, know what to do for ourselves and for others. People, yeah, so I'm pretty, I'm pretty excited about that great. All

    Tiffany Owens Reed 35:04

    right. Well, in closing, Montana, can you tell us a little bit about your town? What do you love about it, and what are some local spots you like to recommend people check out when they come to visit? Yeah,

    Montana Gau 35:13

    absolutely. The the first one, I'm sure that everybody you know says this, right? But I mean, the, biggest thing that I like about Denver is the people Denver has. The I love the people. And I lived in Minneapolis and San Francisco and everywhere else, and I have some amazing, really Grand Rapids and Grand Rapids and Grand Rapids. My family's there, so I have to say that. But no, Denver really has the most amazing people. I meet, the most amazing people here all the time. People here are so friendly. But it's not just that they're friendly. Is that, like, like, it's a transplant city. And people, they're not just friendly. They want to make friends, you know, like, like, people want to meet you, and then go to the mountains, you know, and, like, you know, hike and ski and do all these other things. Like, like, people are so so into just doing stuff here, which is, which is awesome. It's so, so cool. I absolutely love that I'm super biased, because everybody here has the same hobbies I do, and that's outdoor stuff. So there's, there's a little bit of a selection bias. And in the whole town there, you know, you ask people why they moved to Denver, and most people say it so they can be in the mountains. And that's, that's, you know, the prevailing culture here. And I really, really like that. And there's a lot of amazing things to do in the city too. We have some really, really great neighborhoods that I like to check out and whatnot. Rhinos, you know, super popular. I love going out there. South Broadway is really fun. I was, was actually out there some of my friends last night for, you know, it was St Patrick's Day yesterday, and and we were, you know, seeing a cm for the Irish pubs would have us a little bit. So that was, that was pretty fun. And the parks here, the parks are probably the biggest thing, even, you know, going to like wash park or, or, you know, Cheeseman Park is, is probably the most fun thing that I find myself doing on, like a on a weekly basis, is just going to the park with my friends, playing volleyball and getting tacos after. And I biked to the park. I bike to tacos after, and then I bike back home, and it's amazing weather, and it's just, you know, a wonderful park. You can see the mountains off in the distance, and, you know, the sun setting behind them. And it's, you know, like when the sun comes and we sit there and we chat for 30 minutes as it's getting dark before we even make our way over to tacos after. You know, it's fantastic. That

    Tiffany Owens Reed 37:38

    reminds me of living in Brooklyn and spending time in DUMBO or, like, along the river. I don't know if you've ever been to Brooklyn, okay, well, it's a kind of a similar setup where people go out there to play soccer, there's like, the really tall, bright lights and stuff, and then everyone will get together and go find a place to eat. And I feel like that's one of the things about living in walkable, biful cities that have the right, you know, amenities and stuff, or, like, you don't need to spend a ton of money or do extraordinary things. They make it really easy to do the simple things in community. And there can just be, like, such a magic about that that it didn't require, like, having an expensive meal or going to an expensive show. It's like just something as simple as volleyball and tacos while the sun is seriously the better on a bike. Happiness factor goes up exponentially. If you combine all that with being on

    Montana Gau 38:30

    a bike, it does. It

    Tiffany Owens Reed 38:32

    does taco spot,

    Montana Gau 38:35

    Irish rover pub, that's that's this place we usually go. We go there every single Tuesday. Ooh, I don't want to blow it up anymore. It's already hard enough to find a table. Yeah, I mean, we show up with a with a lot of folks. It can be kind of difficult sometimes, but I like it there a lot their tacos are $1 on Tuesdays in and they're delicious. So we go there. I mean, I'm gonna go there today. It's Tuesday.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 39:03

    Oh yeah, you have so much to look forward to. I do have so much,

    Montana Gau 39:06

    like, literally, what I was just describing, I'm gonna be doing that later today. We're gonna go, I'm gonna bike to the park, I'm gonna play volleyball, and then I'm gonna go to tacos after and, you know, bike home. And I'm really looking forward to it. So

    Tiffany Owens Reed 39:16

    for those of us listening now, officially, have the most severe case of FOMO ever. But Montana, thanks so much for coming on the show, sharing your story, obviously, for listening to this in the in your in the Denver area, you should reach out and connect with the strong towns group there. Sounds like they're doing some really fantastic things. If you're listening to this, thanks for joining us to another for another episode, and I'll put Montana's recommendations and all relevant links in the show notes, as usual. And if there is someone in your town who you think we should interview on the show, please let us know using the suggested guest form. That's how he found out about Montana. Somebody nominated him. So if there's someone who you think has a great story to tell, who's doing great work, please, please share that story with us. I. I'll be back next week with another conversation Till then, keep doing what you can to build a strong town.

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