The Bottom-Up Revolution Is...Building Strong Cities in Two Countries

Kip Santos is a trained civil engineer and construction manager who quit his job to build Local Conversations full-time. Now he splits his time between the U.S. and Canada, nurturing the groups he's founded and building missing middle housing

In this episode of The Bottom-Up Revolution, Santos talks about what inspired him to quit his job, what his different groups are working on, and how he became an small-scale developer.

  • Tiffany Owens Reed 0:00

    Hi everybody. Welcome to another episode of the bottom up Revolution podcast. I'm your host. Tiffany Owens Reid. This is a show where I talk to ordinary people who are doing all kinds of creative things to help their communities become more beautiful, resilient, safe places to live. It's always a joy to host this show. I feel like I learned so much from the guests that we bring on, and I hope that the conversations inspire you to see that you probably have something that you can contribute to your community, even if you don't feel like you're technically a strong towns expert or a technical expert or anything like that. That's the whole point. That is. The whole point of this show is to introduce you to people who are who are not experts tech. You know, most of them are not, but they're still bringing the strengths and the gifts that they have to their community and making them better places. Today, I'm joined by Kip Santos. He is a civil engineer, by education, construction manager, by experience and urban infrastructure planner at heart, he splits his time between Vancouver, Canada and New England and the US doing small scale residential development. Kip is passionate about compact car, free care, free living, and is active in several urbanist organizations such as CNU, New England, strong towns and Incremental Development Alliance. Kip. Welcome to the bottom up Revolution podcast.

    Kip Santos 1:22

    Thanks. Stephanie, happy to be here so

    Tiffany Owens Reed 1:25

    you've had quite an adventurous life. We had a chance to talk before this recording, and you've and we have some similarities in that we both have spent significant time being somewhat transient, living all over the country, traveling abroad, stuff like that, and you've got to live in lots of interesting places. But to start off, I am wondering if you can tell us a little bit about where you grew up, and how do you think that your upbringing influenced your current interest in urbanism?

    Kip Santos 1:54

    Sure. So yeah, I grew up in on a small farm in rural the rural town of Charlton, Massachusetts, which is about one hour west of Boston, and there used to be lots of farms in the 70s, 80s and even the 90s, when I was growing up there, but now it's mostly suburbia, and the farms are mostly gone. So I think my experience with urbanization started with at age eight when I was invited to a friend's house, and I said, Mom, can you drive you know, can I go over Jimmy's house? And she said, Yeah, I can drive you there at noon. And then I said, Mom, why can't I just walk to places, or, Why can't I just walk to my friend's house? And you know, it was, it was just so frustrating to have to rely on adults to drive people places or drive us kids places. So my my mom, I love her to pieces, but she is sometimes the nippiest NIMBY that ever nibid. And when it comes especially when it comes to housing on our sheet, because she'll say, Kipper, you will never guess how many houses they're building down the street, especially one across the street from my house. So I would tell her all about suburbia and the housing crisis, and she would always tell me to find my people, you know, the the people that also have a personal beef against suburbia. And I think by age 38 I finally found my people with strong towns.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 3:20

    We'll be sure to send this episode to your mom. I'm sure she'll appreciate this impression. But so bridge the gap for me a little bit between age eight and age 38. What was going on in those middle years where you were making decisions about what to do for work, or just as you were thinking about vocation, or even just like where to live. How did your experience in that more suburban environment kind of shape what you wanted or like, what you decided you would pursue? Yeah,

    Kip Santos 3:50

    I think from growing up in a rural town on a small farm, I really had an appreciation for just walkable, dense places. And my mom, she would say, oh, you know, we live in a rural area, so if you want to live in walkable place, you have to move to a city. So I went to Penn State for my undergrad, and I did civil engineering, and then I served in the military. I was in the US Air Force after that. So I was stationed in South Dakota for two years, and then I was in Afghanistan for about a year, and then I was stationed in South Korea for about a year, and then I backpacked for about a year, seeing all kinds of cool places. And then I landed a job in Chicago, and I, you know, made specific, you know, I really made a point to live at a walkable place where I could just walk a bike everywhere. So I haven't owned a car since about 2008 and I lived in Chicago for about four years. Then I lived in Norway for a year, and then Colorado for two years, and then I decided to go back to grad school at UBC in Vancouver, Canada. So I went back to grad school for a year, then I worked in Canada for a couple. Years, and I think all of those places have really kind of shaped my urbanist outlook. But there's truly no place that's perfect in the world.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 5:12

    So you use the term walkable as something that defined how you decide where to live. Is that just because, like, did you know of this term, like, or were you just going back to that experience when you were little, thinking like, I really want to just have the freedom to walk places and and, and just knew that that was like something important to you. Or did you come across kind of this urbanist concept at some point in there?

    Kip Santos 5:34

    Well, I learned about seeing you the Congress for normative about, you know, around 2005 2006 and I knew that they were making great strides and trying to create walkable communities. So just the triple bottom line, so to speak, of you know, good health, easy on your wallet, good for the environment. I think those are really what appealed to me for walkable communities and where I wanted to situate my life for.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 6:04

    Yeah, my family grew up moving around a lot, but I didn't really get exposed to traditional urbanism and urban design until I moved to New York City for college. And it's just funny how walkability is so basic in the sense of like, this is how humans used to get around basically for 1000s of years. But how, like, cut off we are from that experience until you're able to go to a place where it's the main way of getting around, and then you just, and then you're just like, wait, wait what? You know, it's like, this whole, just this whole concept of, like, you can get places without a car, without any in, you know, you can, there's just, just this whole option to just walk there. So I always just find it fascinating, like, how people are introduced to that. And then I left New York City and went to Asheville for a job, and that's really when it really hit me, of like, the that whole having to go back to, like, driving everywhere. I think that's when it really settled in, like, how? Because it's not even, like, living in New York, I had a language for it. I was like, Oh, look how walkable it is here. You know, she's like, this is cool. I'm gonna, I would just be like, I'm just gonna go for a walk. Like, not go for a walk in the healthy way. Just the city was a place to just be in and be like, I just want to go wander and explore with my camera, right? And so then you move back to place where you can't really do that, and that's when it really settles in, and you're like, Oh my goodness. And that's kind of when my urbanism journey sort of started somewhat accidentally. So yeah, I'm just always curious how people come across, sort of how they're exposed to the concept of having this option to get around, rather than relying on a car you shared about some of the places where you've been able to live and work and work and stuff. Are there? Like, what would you say are like, maybe one or two of the most interesting places you've lived, and what did you enjoy about them?

    Kip Santos 7:51

    Well, I think internationally, living in Norway was really cool. They got awesome public transit. And then Korea has got amazing scenery that people are so so nice, but I think the two places that I've lived the most at or the longest at, was Chicago for about five years, and more recently, in Vancouver. And I think Chicago is just one of the most underrated cities of all time. It's got excellent nightlife. It's got a great sports scene. It's got a lot of history and architecture. You know, the beaches in the summertime are great, and Vancouver is pretty much a stark contrast of think of Chicago, but I think it's still awesome in many ways. It's got great density. It has awesome scenery, the bike lane infrastructure, the public transit is extremely good compared to other cities in North America, and it's just got a wealth of outdoor activities in the Pacific Northwest. I

    Tiffany Owens Reed 8:46

    want to ask you about something as someone who's had to think about this a lot, but as you're going from place to place, and getting to getting to know each place, and kind of seeing what they had to offer, even seeing what made them imperfect, figuring out, like, how you were going to build a life there, how did, how did you navigate, sort of the element of, like, what your mom said, of like finding your people, or like building friendships or finding community. What was that side of it like for you? What's that been like?

    Kip Santos 9:12

    Yeah, that's a good question. I think it's been, it's been pretty difficult to find my people, because I learned about tnu years and years ago. But I think from my perspective, is I just kind of lived my life where, you know, I could walk and bike everywhere, and it does a bit of a struggle, because when people say, Oh, you don't have a car, how do you how do you get groceries? And you say, I don't, you just get a huge bag and bike to the grocery store and just suck it up. So I think in that respect, I kind of chose my locations and job opportunities where there was already an urban fabric. Yeah,

    Tiffany Owens Reed 9:52

    so I want to connect that to how you found out about strong towns. And can you tell us that story a little bit? What? How did you find out? Strong towns, and what resonated with you, and did that help? Has that? What has that been like, just in terms of finding finding other people who will also nerd out about walkability?

    Kip Santos 10:12

    No, totally. In fact, I first learned about strong towns back in 2022 when I was making a presentation to my colleagues about how suburbia in North America exacerbated the costs of long term infrastructure, asset management, planning for really all municipalities, small and large, the typical growth Ponzi scheme that Chuck alludes to. So although that was in 2022 I didn't start a local conversation in Vancouver until late 2023 when we finally, after a few months, reached critical mass of interested strong towns allies in order to create a local conversation in, you know, at a coffee shop. And I guess one of my big regrets in life is I really wish that I discovered strong towns back in 2012 when I first moved to Chicago, because I think I could have made an impact

    Tiffany Owens Reed 11:05

    there. Yeah, so I know that the emphasis on there, kind of the Ponzi scheme and the financial sustainability and everything, but it seems to me, from the little bit I know about your story, is that Sean towns, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like it created like a and I've seen this in so many other stories that I've been people that I've interviewed, and stories that I've told of how it kind of, it provides people sort of like a framework for doing more for things that like, like advancing the conversation, and not only providing language for what they've noticed and been dealing and struggling with or been looking for, just in terms of like, their observations of the of the American city, but also like a vehicle for like, for like, meaningful action. So you mentioned starting local conversation groups. How did, how did it finding out about strong towns. What was it about it that made you kind of read like, not just appreciate it and be like, Oh, wow. I'm glad someone out there is writing these great articles about the Ponzi scheme, but see it as a vehicle for like action for yourself

    Kip Santos 12:08

    totally. And I think that was what I really love about strong towns, is they do emphasize the the fiscal prudence of municipalities, whereas, seeing you, kind of focuses more on the architecture and the master planning of it all. So I think that strong towns really does an excellent job. And I think after I discovered strong towns, I kind of decided that I done the generic construction management in engineering design for far too long, and that I wanted to dedicate all my time to strong towns because of the values and the openness and the inclusivity of strong town. So I wanted to start a strong towns, little conversation in Vancouver, where I'd lived, but also in Providence, Rhode Island and Somerville. And my connections to Somerville is, is my dad is from Somerville. And the strong towns, local or the strong, strong times Providence, local conversation hadn't been started yet when we have the national gathering going there in the springtime. So I figured, okay, if I could, even if I can't live in these cities full time, I at least want to start a local conversation and keep the momentum going with the awesome people that are already there and and I do want to highlight a really awesome, amazing guy named Hunter Heyman. He started two local conversations, one in Chicago and the other one in Ann Arbor. And, yeah, he's a he's a wealth of resources too.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 13:36

    So what was it about the local conversation group model that resonated with you to the point where you decided to quit your job to work on that. And I know you were doing other things, but I'm just curious. Like, what was it that you that clicked? Like, when you're you're thinking about this, you're like, Okay, this is what I want to do with my time. Like, why that? Why local conversation groups?

    Kip Santos 13:56

    Well, I think that so when I quit my job. I said, Okay, I love everything about strong towns, and I just want to do it full time. And I'm very grateful to have the financial stability to be able to do that. And I think what two things that I can recognize. One is John Patterson, who's a staff member at strong towns. He published these two articles called you're not alone. And that really resonated with me, because for so many years, decades, even I did feel alone. And I feel like there's so many people in North America that say, why doesn't everybody you know? Why do people think that suburbia is so great, blah, blah, blah. So I think starting the local or the strong towns low conversations is just amazing, because it's extremely inclusive. It's really open to everybody. And there's even an article that says, Come as you are, and strong towns is just the epitome of inclusivity and openness. And you know, really whatever capacity or whatever background you have. If you bring it to the table, that's great. And one example from strong towns Vancouver that I always highlight is there's this guy named Anton, and he comes to almost no meetings for the past year and a half. But we love him to death, because he's our website designer, and that's his his specialty. And he says, I want to help create the website, and he maintains it, and anytime there's an issue, he fixes it right away. So we just say, if you only could dedicate one hour per month, that's great. If you want to dedicate every single day or take on a leadership role, that's even better.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 15:33

    Yeah, I like that concept of just going back to what his mom said, of like, finding your people, and also the way that strong towns makes room for people with all kinds of interests, and it gives people something to like rally around, no matter their background or their interests or their skill set. There's it's kind of like what Chuck writes about in the book with the dinner party just keeps getting better the more people that show up, totally so can you tell us about some of the projects that are these groups are working on? So you said there's three, there's one in Vancouver, one in Somerville and one in Providence. What are some things that they're working on to improve their city?

    Kip Santos 16:14

    Totally, yeah. So strong towns Vancouver has has been around the longest and and we have amazing, awesome people at all three groups, Eli Manav and Anna, they're the the leaders at strong towns Vancouver. And then in Providence, we have Shelby, Evan and Dylan, who are also taking on leadership roles. And then in Somerville, we have Rushdie and Isabella. And I'm very, very grateful to work with all these amazing people and strong towns, Vancouver, at least, has been around the longest, so we of those three. So we've done multiple tactical urbanist projects. We've advocated at city council. We've led walking tours and biking tours, and, in fact, just this Friday, we're organizing a big tent urbanist event for all the local groups in Vancouver to kind of share in urbanist ideals and and talk more about that. So unfortunately, strong towns providence and strong towns Somerville, we're kind of still in the stage one organizing, so we haven't really done too many projects or initiatives yet, but that's totally fine. In fact, for all the listeners out there that are starting local conversations, it takes time. It takes months to gain momentum, and just this week, strong towns Vancouver reach 250 members on Discord, which is great, but you know, that took 15 months and and we have, you know, it's fine to get the ball rolling, and you can't really expect things to grow too quickly.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 17:48

    Yeah, um, so what are the I feel like you probably have a sense, though, of like, what the talking what? What are the topics that really get most of the attention in each of those cities? Like, for instance, I can imagine Vancouver, probably Vancouver, probably there's a lot of talk about housing.

    Kip Santos 18:05

    Totally. Yeah, Vancouver is one of the most expensive cities in the world for housing and just cost of living overall, so housing pretty much dominates all the conversation, but also in terms of safe streets and productive streets. In fact, one of our our biggest and best projects at strong towns Vancouver was to turn a a bike bridge or a bridge into a pedestrian only and a bike only bridge. So we just got a bunch of people together. We partnered with uh Vision Zero Vancouver, and we got 30 to 50 people out there on a Saturday, and it was nice and sunny, and we turned it into a park let, and really raised awareness to say, Hey, this is a great opportunity to turn this into a park let. And we got a lot of you know locals involved, and we're hoping to eventually turn that into a permanent intervention.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 19:04

    I always love when I get to hear tactical stories. I think the tactical route is so fun and so fascinating, but I know that for some people, it doesn't always feel like the right approach to take. Do you have you? I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that like kind of the balance between knowing when it's time to be tactical versus, like try to maybe do things in a more collaborative way within the standard operating processes, so to speak. What are your thoughts on that?

    Kip Santos 19:34

    No, that's that's a good observation. In fact, that was one of mine as well, which is, you know, how what if you go in and do a tax service project and everybody hates it, and they rip it all up. And in fact, that actually happened to us, so we put out picnic tables and and barrels, and then, you know, a few of the neighbors complained, and the city came and just ripped all up and disposed of it. So that was a bit of a setback. But however, we did bring up a lot of great issues, and we got locals, local involvement. So we certainly have a lot of lessons learned. However, it spawned a good conversation to connect with someone who already put in a proposal to the city for to turn this into a permanent park as well, as, you know, we have a meeting on Monday with the City of Vancouver staff to kind of streamline that process and to build it incrementally.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 20:30

    I feel like, from what I've heard from other people on the show, there's some people working in context where their city is, like, heavily collaborative and open, like, there's really high openness to what you know the Strong Towns group is trying to do, or the concerns that are being brought up. And then I've heard some stories where it's just like, I'll be I think I literally said this. I was like, I think your only option is to go tactical, because of how closed it felt like the municipal world was, and just like, how insistent they were, or how slow they were, and it's almost like you kind of have to look at what the stakes are. Like. I'm like, if you're talking about kids, you know, having to drive along, ride their bike along traffic because they want to ride their bike to school. And I'm like, yeah, maybe just put down a tactical bike. You know, the stakes are really high here. The stakes are high enough to just do something and make and force the city to respond to it. So I think it just takes kind of reading the room and say like, well, how open is our city leadership? How open is our our leaders like what we have to say into our concerns and and if there's openness and willingness, you know, maybe maybe try the collaborative route. But I definitely there are times and places to just go try to fix things or break things, kind of depending

    Kip Santos 21:43

    Exactly. Yeah. This project, although it didn't reach its end goal, it certainly accelerated the process. So, you know, the the person that submitted that proposal, they would not have known about strong towns Vancouver until we did that project.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 21:57

    Yeah. So I mentioned in your introduction that you're you're doing some small scale residential development. Can you tell us a little bit about that? How did you get into that world, and what, whatever you'd like to share about what you're working on or what you're hoping to achieve? Would love to hear.

    Kip Santos 22:14

    Sure, yeah, totally. In fact, I am a big fan of the incremental development Alliance, also known as ink Dev, and especially Monty and Bernice at the neighborhood evolution. And I've always wanted to be an incremental developer for probably the past 10 or 15 years, but I didn't even know that incremental development was a term. I just thought that developers are developers, and no one else could really do it. So back in 2019 I built a tiny house on wheels and then, and then sold it to one of my friends. And then just this past year, me and some buddies in Massachusetts, we bought another tiny house on wheels and renovated that for a few months last year, and then I bought some property up in Maine, and I'm hoping to turn that into a missing middle housing, dense type of development, and then I'm helping some friends build a multi cabin resort on the BC coast. So those are all kind of in the works, and we haven't really done too much construction yet, but we're still in the planning phases. But one thing that that I really like about or, you know, there's this quote called Find your farm, and it's a mantra used by Inc dev for their small developer workshops. And their recipe for success is to find, or as a small developer, is to pick an area the size of a neighborhood or smaller, and then just commit to the long haul in order to grow that neighborhood. So eventually I'll get around to writing a strong towns article about this. But I want to, you know, really kind of help and publicize that not everybody has found their farm yet. You know, for me and fellow strong towns folks who, intentionally or unintentionally, are quite transient and move around a lot. We haven't really found our farm yet, but there's still a lot we can contribute to the incremental development space.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 24:12

    Yeah, yeah, for sure. I remember maybe two years ago, I some friends were moving away from Waco, and it's always really sad when friends move away, but it's all it can also be a really good experience, especially when they're moving away in the context of, like, a community, like they were, you know, like our church community here, you know, they were a big part of it. So you can't, you're not just processing them leaving, but you're watching everyone else process it, and then you're hosting, like, goodbye parties, and then everyone's talking about, and there's all these feelings, and it's sad, and it just it, I found to be a really good moment to just sort of reflect on, like, Huh? Like, how do, what do I want my departure to be? Like? Because I know I don't, I don't know that I'm going to stay in Waco forever. I don't, I don't think it's our forever place. I'm not sure that it's our Fauci. Arm, so to speak. But it really made me think differently about, how do I not just, how do I want to kind of thinking about, how do I want to be here, relative to, how do I, what do I want the leaving to look like, like when I look back, when weight goes in the rearview window, you know, I don't want to just be the place that I like coped with and like complain about all the time. You know, to complain about it sometimes, and that, and that was, like, a big part of deciding to start the local conversation group here. It was just realizing like, and this is what I mean with how the local conversation groups can really just be this vehicle for people who resonate with like they want to do something. And it's, it's kind of like, choose your own adventure. It can be a long term thing. It can be something you do for three years. It can be something you like get going and you hand off to like, you really help the right leader step in to carry it forward. It can be something you technically leave for, like, the next 15 years of her life, you know, like, it's, it's just so flexible and adaptable to like different people, like their strengths and their life stages. But I think for those people who are trying to figure out, like, yeah, have I found my farm? I don't know. I might just be here for grad school. I might just be here for like, this job, and another job might take me away. I think there, there is a lot of room to talk about, what does meaningful participation look like in that context? Because I think so often people just write it off because they don't know if they're going to stay forever. You know. So yes, it'll be, I'll be interested to see what, what thoughts you come up with on on that topic for your, for your eventual strong counts article. Well, we'll all be looking for it, transient souls. What? What? What about? So you said you kind of got interested in incremental development before you even know it was a term, what were you noticing? That kind of made you think, like, Hey, I could, I could be part of the solution here. Or can you, can you tell us about that? And because I know you figured out, like, Oh, this is the actual thing. Like, later down the line, and now you're moving in that direction, but in that middle and that interim, like, what were you seeing? And what was it? What were you, what was, what was your thought process behind realizing like you could help, you could help by actually being part of the solution in this incremental development role?

    Kip Santos 27:11

    Yeah, I think from what most people see is your typical track suburban development, or your SkyRise towers, and there was really nothing in the way of that, that missing middle housing typology. So, so I guess, what I used to believe, like many people still believe today, is that city building was a job that other people did for us, just similar to, you know, the way that sewer water and wastewater engineers develop our sewer systems for everybody, but and we've kind of let urban planning professionals like, you know, Robert Moses determine the urban development patterns, which is kind of a why we're still living with so much unimpressive suburbia today. But now I you know Jane Jacobs and all the books that have been published in the past 20 years especially, have really made me decide wholeheartedly that city building requires all kinds of residents from all types of professions to spawn growth and resilience. So I guess my journey, so to speak, has been in my 20s and 30s. I said, Oh, I just need to roam around the world and figure out where that perfect place is, or where that mixed use, dense, walkable neighborhood that I want to settle in. But I'm realizing now that I can and I should help build stronger urban fabric, wherever I live, and based on my background with construction management, I can certainly contribute to that incremental development space. I think that's probably my my niche over the next five to 10 years. That's

    Tiffany Owens Reed 28:57

    really exciting. So I want to ask you questions about specific city. So the national gathering, as you mentioned, is coming to Providence in a couple months. I'm just curious, what opportunities do you see for Providence become stronger? And also, what do you think the city is doing well? And what do you think are some opportunities for it to become even a strong, a stronger, a stronger town, so to speak,

    Kip Santos 29:22

    yeah, I think, you know, we both agree that that Providence is a really awesome, amazing, small city and strong towns. Providence our local conversation, we're really excited that the National gathering is coming to Providence, and Providence has just got a lot to offer. It's got history, culture, entertainment, architecture, regional connectivity, higher education, and, you know, strong towns, Providence, we plan on doing and setting up a bunch of tactical urbanist projects for people to view, as well as some some walking tours. But I guess from from what. Providence does very, very or has an opportunity to do, is for infill development, and it could certainly become stronger with even more infill development, especially with infill housing. And Providence has many local groups, and that's not a local groups that are similar to strong towns, and that's not a bad thing. In fact, that's a really good thing, because those partnerships have really increased membership and engagement and participation for all aspects of urbanism. But I think if Providence can accelerate that process of promoting infill development, like many of our local groups do, I think it'll be way ahead of other cities that that similarly suffer from the housing crisis.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 30:44

    A very important question for you, Kip, have you found Justine's? Do you know if Justine's to speak easy,

    Kip Santos 30:52

    I have heard of it. I have not been to it yet, though. I'm

    Tiffany Owens Reed 30:55

    just gonna leave it there. Justine is great. There's also a really great taco shop next door. Um, so I yeah, I'm asking this because I used to live in Providence, and it is an interesting place. It's funny, because I think my association with Providence has so much to do with the people there. I had such a really like, even the first time I lived there for really short period of time, at some of one of the most meaningful experiences of community in my life, and then that, and that's what actually motivated me to move back a couple years later, and stayed that time for about nine months. So it's I'm looking forward to being back and really looking at it more from the perspective of the built environment, because there were definitely things about Waco, I mean, definitely things about providence that I didn't find to be that, like the highway going straight through the middle of the city, like all the big scale, out of scale projects in the downtown, like, there were definitely things I could notice, but I think I was so under the intoxication of really great friends that maybe that stuff just didn't stand out to me as much. And so I'm looking forward to coming back just kind of seeing, like, kind of paying a little bit more attention. Paying a little bit more attention to, like, the built environment, kind of like the patterns and like of the city and stuff like that. And, yeah, what are those opportunities? It's interesting. You say infill, because Providence actually strikes me as very packed in terms of housing. But they, I know they have a lot of those, like triple decker, multi family houses. I don't I lived in one of those, and I don't know the rules around but, but I know their housing stock is pretty old, so I wonder if that's like, part of the challenge of like, well, how do you if your housing stock is aging out, you know what? What is that going to look like for the future? So sure, there's a lot of interesting things to talk about there. So wrapping up with our last question, I kind of, I kind of told you one of my favorite places in Providence, Justine's. It's a speakeasy, but I won't tell you how to find it. What do you what do you love about it? Where do you like to spend time when you're there? And are there any local spots you like to recommend people check out if they go to visit?

    Kip Santos 32:57

    Totally Yeah. In fact, I just just googled Justine's, so

    Tiffany Owens Reed 33:01

    it was like a secret when I lived there, like someone had to tell me how to get there. I guess it's not a secret anymore. That's a bummer.

    Kip Santos 33:12

    Yeah, totally. Well, no, I think that you know, Providence has is an amazing city. I love Providence, one of my favorite cities, and I think, from my perspective, is I love just walking northbound up the Providence River, walk up the hill to the Rhode Island State House, especially at night when the State House is all lit up. And I definitely recommend for people to visit the 195 district Park and the nearby pedestrian bridge that crosses the Providence River. And I suppose, outside of Providence, I really love the the East Bay bike path, which goes from East Providence all the way down to cult State Park. It's, I think it's right, or I'm pretty sure that they just repurposed an old railroad line for this bike path. But it's amazing, because everybody loves it, and you get to go through go through Warren, and you

    Tiffany Owens Reed 34:04

    can stop at Adele's and get frozen lemonade.

    Kip Santos 34:10

    Exactly. This is actually

    Tiffany Owens Reed 34:11

    a quiz Kip. You don't really know it, but I'm actually, I'm gonna see if you know all the right places to check off. I'm sort of kidding. One year for Fourth of July, my friends went out to a beach, and I actually biked to meet them, and it was really long bike ride along that trail, and it was amazing. And then on the way back, I stopped and got Dells at the Serena place, and it was just everything life should be, a long bike ride and frozen, frozen lemonade. Totally,

    Kip Santos 34:39

    yeah, exactly. And I think the other area that of providence that I'd recommend is walking along Benefit Street in the College Hill neighborhood. And there's just such a variety of architecture and repurposed buildings there. In fact, strong towns providence and the Providence streets coalition are organizing a. Tour of that area for the National gathering. So we encourage everybody to I'm sure

    Tiffany Owens Reed 35:06

    you guys will, will you? I'm sure you all hit on the Anthony Ann, if I'm pronouncing that correctly, I feel like I'm not pronouncing it correctly. But the old library,

    Kip Santos 35:18

    oh, yes, um, the do you mean the one in College Hill or downtown?

    Tiffany Owens Reed 35:26

    It's the one in the really beautiful old building where I think you can sit in like George Washington's chair or something like this. I don't quote me on any of that, but it's very old. I'm pretty sure I think it's up the hill. I don't think it's downtown. You have to go up the hill we're both googling it.

    Kip Santos 35:46

    Yeah, I think I've heard of it before, but I can't remember the name either.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 35:49

    All right. Well, now I'm leaving you with a place to go. You have to go there because it's just, it's the place to spend, like a relaxing Sunday afternoon. I'm pretty sure it's right across the street from the RISD Museum or something like that. There's, like, a good coffee shop in there. Providence also has really good coffee do you have a favorite place? Yeah,

    Kip Santos 36:07

    I like, Oh shoot. It's called bike, bike brewery. Okay, let me see, no, it's, it's called, oh the Nitro bar.

    Tiffany Owens Reed 36:20

    Nitro bar. Nitro

    Kip Santos 36:22

    bar is, is kind of in in West Broadway area, and it's, it's connected to a bike shop, and I think it's just one of the coolest, funkiest places that I grab coffee. Even though I stopped drinking coffee after I quit my job,

    Tiffany Owens Reed 36:36

    I stopped drinking coffee too. They're so fun. They're so fun. They're places to get a slice of local life exactly. All right? Well, Kip, thank you so much for coming on the show. We'll definitely put lots of links in the show notes if you're listening to this. Thank you for joining us for another episode. If there's someone in your community who you think would make a great fit for the show, please let us know using this suggested guest form that we always include in our show notes. I'll be back soon with another episode. In the meantime, keep doing what you can to build a strong town.

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